D&D Rules Annoyance #3298

[ralphmelton]

Feh. Once again, there's a razor-thin line between 'too easy' and 'too hard' in D&D, this time with negative levels.

I actually like the D&D 3rd edition rules for level drain. There are negative levels, whose effects are easy enough to compute that they can be conveniently applied in battle. Then 24 hours after the level drain, there's a Fortitude save to see whether you lose a level permanently, with all the character-sheet updating that requires.

The PCs in my game are about to take on a vampire, so I've been thinking about how the level drain might play out. Liandra can cast restoration twice a day (I let druids cast it, because I wanted the party not to completely miss out on higher-level healing for having a druid as their only healer). Restoration eliminates all negative levels, and restores one lost level if cast within a day per caster level of the level drain.

I was pretty happy with what I'd thought about this; if the vampire inflicted negative levels on most PCs, Liandra couldn't restore them all immediately, but almost certainly could restore them within a day per caster level. So there would be loss, but mitigatable loss.

Dani pointed out a better solution: since they're going into the situation with preparation, they can prepare a couple of scrolls of restoration, and use those to eliminate any negative levels before they result in actual level loss.

Sigh. With planning, the party's secure against domination and against level loss. It's going to be non-trivial to make this vampire battle exciting.

Comments

[a-machine.livejournal.com]

D&D is all about planning. There's very little any size and level of group can't accomplish with proper forethought and a reasonable amount of player freedom to persue odd lines of thought. You won't perform at the proper level to compete with equally-valued foes if you don't plan, it's assumed that you will.

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

Agreed. (And particularly so with vampires.) It's just making it very hard for me to respond as a GM.

Part of the problem is that there are 100% effective defenses to a lot of D&D situations.

Bad guys can prepare too...

[glenbarnett.livejournal.com]

Many monsters, and Vampires in particular, aren't stupid.

A powerful vampire has not only raw intelligence to draw
on, but long experience.

Even if he doesn't know the PCs are coming intelligence
and experience will have meant he has contingency plans.

So put yourself in the position of playing a character.
Regard the PCs as a DM-controlled team of monsters
who are coming for you.

You have a vampire character. A bunch of really nasty dudes
who want to turn you into dust are coming, and they'll have
prepared for all your worst mojo.

What on earth can you do about it?

Glen

[drakemonger.livejournal.com]

If this guy had a few high level minions with abilities the PCs couldn't even predict, that could make things a lot more interesting.

[artbroken.livejournal.com]

Or, for that matter, had another template on top of the vampire one that moderated his abilities.

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

I do plan minions. I don't know how unpredictable they'll be, but I'll do what I can.

I've given you enough in-game suggestions

[sethcohen.livejournal.com]

And now I should give you a meta-game suggestion, even though I know you won't use it:

Kill Dani. This solves most of your existing D&D problems, and many of your future ones. Sorry, cellio, but sacrifices have to be made...

kidnapping

[sethcohen.livejournal.com]

So, who's the character who can write scrolls? Have the vampire kidnap them before battle. Make them unable to communicate with the party so that they don't have a spy on the inside. Enthrall them. Make them work against the party. And have fun while doing it.

Re: kidnapping

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'd be delighted to have the vampire attack the party before they're all geared up.

Re: kidnapping

[sethcohen.livejournal.com]

Well, if this guy's all badass, then have him do so. No reason he can't be at least as spiffy as the party.

You could really freak out the players by switching that session to a session of BtVS. I've read the core rules, and I like it lots.

Re: kidnapping

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

If they don't kill him on this trip, he might well be making such plans.

[mrpeck.livejournal.com]

Given Kevin's recent post, it seems to me that you have to participate in the arms race a bit more. You should do whatever you can to give the vampire Haste. Did I mention that 3.0 Haste is horribly broken and I hate it? :)

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

Yes. Many, many times. On the other hand, 3.5 Haste is silly. A compromise version should be come up with--though the only idea I have for it unfortunately requires complex playing around with Initiative ordering.

[mrpeck.livejournal.com]

bah

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

One of the thoughts I had was to let haste grant an extra move-equivalent action. You could still get a move and a full attack this way, and you could do lots of interesting things with it--but you couldn't cast two spells in a turn.

This is at least fairly simple, and not nerfed as badly as the 3.5 Haste.

[indigodove.livejournal.com]

One word for you.

Languor.

Love, your wife the badass druid ;-)

[mg4h.livejournal.com]

Dani pointed out a better solution: since they're going into the situation with preparation, they can prepare a couple of scrolls of restoration, and use those to eliminate any negative levels before they result in actual level loss.

Dani may have pointed this out, but the character scribing the scroll has to agree to the experience loss. Creating a scroll is not cheap - especially a 4th level scroll. Creating multiple scrolls? Eep.

It sounds like you let them (or Dani at least) run the game too much. You don't have to let every one of their schemes work - make them fail. Give them a disease, have them catch a cold from plague rats - something unexpected. Don't let them scry the vampire, make them walk into his castle directly - and trap them inside so they can't run away and try it again. Throw up magical wards, dispell their items, curse them - there's a metric ton of things you CAN do to them to make it more challenging. And yes, I like the ambush idea - have the vampire attack them.

Here's my quick-and-dirty response to, "make a bunch of scrolls to remove any element of risk." If they're roused out of bed multiple nights in a row and can't get a full 8 hours of sleep, your spellcasters can't created repeated scrolls. It doesn't even have to be something serious - a couple of groups of (say) bats, every few hours during the night, would do the trick. Yes, I know, it seems like you're cheating - but if you were playing the vampire, and managed to hear the suggestion of creating scrolls, that's a great way to prevent it without risking yourself nor expending a lot of effort.

Maybe you should talk to gootmu - he always manages to come up with things that we can sorta handle, but it never seems like we're not in serious freakin' danger till it's over. And yeah, we've lost people and had to pay for true resurrection (*shudder*).

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

Dang. Computer crashed as I was posting.

At 45XP per (it's a 5th-level spell for Liandra), the XP cost of a few scrolls is pretty trivial.

It is true that the players have a lot of control over the game. Part of this is the moment; they know about the vampire and he doesn't seem to know about them. Part of it is the nature of D&D, for which Monte Cook has said that removing DM control was part of the design philosophy of 3rd edition.

[drakemonger.livejournal.com]

This guy's got no spies? He doesn't do a periodic divination for new enemies?

[dvarin.livejournal.com]

Um. That's 1125g per scroll, each scroll takes two days, and they have to be in a city to make them assuming it's not the druidess who has the Scribe Scroll feat. That's two days per scroll. Plenty of time for the vampire to assassinate one of them. :)

[ralphmelton.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's 662.5 gp per scroll to make. But you're right, takes two days. (The well-provided bunker they're in has suitable materials.)

[indigodove.livejournal.com]

Sweetie, I'll say it again. You are the DM. Don't let players run the game. Also, don't let them answer when I ask you a question. It is your world, ultimately. We help create it by our actions, but ultimately it's yours.

Also, you have said Liandra is still kind of woozy. I am perfectly willing to accept the fact that she may not have the energy to create scrolls right now. It's okay for her to be all kinds of exhausted for a couple days after her "Hey, why don't I slit my own palm and bleed healing energy into the pool of Agondre" trick of last session.

We don't have to be superheroes always. It is actually more interesting when we're not. That said, kill my character and I'll be insufferable for at least a day or two ;-)